An Analysis

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An Analysis

Post by celes on Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:55 pm

First topic message reminder :

To everyone, please take this with a pinch of salt. Smile

At the start of the new millenium a forum exclusively for 3d Filipino artists emerged in the form of www.3dpinoy.com. it spawned a lot of talents and lively discussions but it was afflicted with a condition known as the "emperor's new clothes" syndrome. This is a syndrome whereby praise for work is being given to something that is utterly the reverse.

Needless to say the continuous non-constructive praises for substandard works took a toll on some of the members and it spawned a troll. His arrival seemed to have separated the lighthearted from the grinches, but beyond that his presence was simply a magnification of that cancerous condition afflicting the forums and thereby needed a good shot. Which spawned the first reincarnation of 3dpinoy.

Everyone welcomed the arrival, though majority of the old members chose to lurk or not involve in the new forums at all. Whatever the reasons, it was a big loss in the community, however the new forums flourished and for a time, it has spawned more talents in the industry. Then again, the forum needed revamping - and the new 3dp took a hiatus.

Enter www.cgpinoy.org, a forum organized with the initial objective of bringing together the old and new 3dp members for a holding cell in preparation for 3dp's comeback, but the site proved to be successful and has sustained itself independent of the 3dpinoy forum, which has recently been reincarnated. Again, the old masters from the first 3dp forums have chosen to lurk or remain in the sidelines. There were a few who came back, ironically the ones who came back have ultimately chosen to drop from participating.

There exists a uniqueness among these Filipino forums that are not common in most international CG related forums - the tendency to praise even bad works. Ergo, the "emperor's new clothes" syndrome. To most, this is purely coincidental with the Filipino traits of avoiding "balat sibuyas" personalities, fear of rejection by the majority for speaking out their opinion, or simple patronizing. Good or bad, this practice seems to have more destructive effects. For one it delays the path of improvement for the individual artist, and it gives them a false sense of achievement which they only realize when they get out of the sphere of these localized forums. The choice of language also plays a role. When an opinion is raised, more often than not when the four-letter word equivalents in the local dialect is employed for rebuttal the tonal quality of the responses take a turn from informative to pure trash talk.

i quote, from http://blog.qualityaspect.com/2006/08/26/the-emperors-new-clothes-syndrome/ the author being Lidor Wyssocky:

The problem is that although we know exactly what doesn’t work right and how it should be fixed, most of us will never say anything. We don’t say anything because there’s a very good chance the minute we do we will be marked as uncooperative, pessimistic, or simply detached from the business reality.

That’s exactly why everyone was afraid to admit the Emperor was naked in Hans Christian Andersen’s tale. The premise that only smart people are able to see the Emperor’s clothes is one of those “perfect arguments” that can never be disproved. The only one who ultimately said something was a little child who was naive enough to ignore the implications of his actions. Luckily, with his naive reaction this child immediately freed everyone else from the paralyzing power of the premise. Things are not that simple in our business world. If you are marked as a troublemaker, the rest will rarely follow.

And the exact same syndrome sometimes afflicts us as an industry. Much of the hypes and trends that are sweeping the software (3d) industry are far from being perfect as they are presented to be. They come out of the box with the premise that anyone who doesn’t accept them knows nothing about modern software (3d) development. And thus, instead of being engaged in an intellectual debate, we all get emotionally involved in a lost battle.

I guess the only way out of the Emperor’s New Clothes Syndrome is to nurture our professional integrity and keep saying what’s on our mind. At the end of the day, if more of us do so, the business each of us work for, and our industry as a whole, will become better.

If more of us say what we know in our hearts to be true, the rest won’t be able to ignore it anymore. Hopefully.



After several forum reincarnations and isolated attempts to improve the system, nothing has really changed. This post is merely an analysis. If we recognize the syndrome to exist, that would be a good start. Whenever or whatever actions will be done is entirely up to the community.
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Re: An Analysis

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:55 pm

good discussion ulit mga bro 2thumbsup

bakit hindi natin tingnan yung point of view naman ng mga newbies?
calling all newbies... it's about time to speak out your mind. para naman maintindihan nating lahat kung ano ba ang reasons ng praises and accollades na ibinibigay sa thread setter na hindi naman ganun kaganda ang post?

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Re: An Analysis

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:00 pm

kietsmark wrote:good discussion ulit mga bro 2thumbsup

bakit hindi natin tingnan yung point of view naman ng mga newbies?
calling all newbies... it's about time to speak out your mind. para naman maintindihan nating lahat kung ano ba ang reasons ng praises and accollades na ibinibigay sa thread setter na hindi naman ganun kaganda ang post?

Ayos parekoy.Oo nga..I think since isa sila sa mga main topic i guess mas maganda kung may magsasalita sa kanila...

Ano umpisahan ko na parekoy??Joke!hihihihihihi.. peace man

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Re: An Analysis

Post by eyecon01 on Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:02 pm

I'll try to give a good analogy for my point here regarding human nature.

When you train a kid to ride a bike, what do you do? You obviously could not scold him or expect people to come in and pressure the kid to ride the bike correctly right away. The proper way is to praise the boy for every small step and stumble he makes, yet at the same time teaching him the right way to do it.

Artists (newbies in skill) in the forums in general need to be treated that way too. Slowly teach them in their own level. Teach them lightly and not blow them away with terms and criticism that might just push them away. (e.g. We can't expect anybody to learn proper lighting if that person can barely grasp the idea or rendering.)

On that same point some "critics" go way beyond their head, pushing all this information on a newbie. Helpful? maybe. Necessary? Unlikely.

Guys, just remember nung baguhan pa kayo sa industry na ito. I know at that time ok ang criticism pero isn't a few "well done" and "lufeet pare!" also equally important... and a few years after, looking back you will realize how far you have gone. Then and there you would remember how both criticism and praises have helped you... parang 2 sides of the same coin gaya ng sabi ni torvicz...

Cheers dudes!
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Re: An Analysis

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:07 pm

ARCHITHEKTHURA wrote:
kietsmark wrote:good discussion ulit mga bro 2thumbsup

bakit hindi natin tingnan yung point of view naman ng mga newbies?
calling all newbies... it's about time to speak out your mind. para naman maintindihan nating lahat kung ano ba ang reasons ng praises and accollades na ibinibigay sa thread setter na hindi naman ganun kaganda ang post?

Ayos parekoy.Oo nga..I think since isa sila sa mga main topic i guess mas maganda kung may magsasalita sa kanila...

Ano umpisahan ko na parekoy??Joke!hihihihihihi.. peace man

ahahahaha yul serbo hindi ka pwede overqualified ka e lol Twisted Evil

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Re: An Analysis

Post by celes on Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:08 pm

actually guys i have made my point clear in the first post already, the issues are all there so take it as it is. that is my observation. agree with it, fine. not, just as good.
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Re: An Analysis

Post by xboy360 on Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:17 pm

Problema lang ata yung balance ng praise/crits dito. O_O
nakikita ko hindi 50/50, more like 25-crits/75-praise eh. So parang nasspoil tayo. Well, siguro nga marami pa kasing newbies dito kaya masmaraming nagppraise then nababalance out yung crits. xD
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Re: An Analysis

Post by arkiedmund on Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:18 pm

This is a good discussion. Let us continue, in order for us to asses ourselves. I am sure, each one of us will be motivated to do something for the forums and it's user be it the veterans, regulars, or the newbies.

I would like to encourage the new ones to contribute and share your piece of mind or ideas regarding this topic.

I'll be keeping watch in here...

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Re: An Analysis

Post by cloud20 on Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:28 pm

eyecon01 wrote:

Guys, just remember nung baguhan pa kayo sa industry na ito. I know at that time ok ang criticism pero isn't a few "well done" and "lufeet pare!" also equally important... and a few years after, looking back you will realize how far you have gone. Then and there you would remember how both criticism and praises have helped you... parang 2 sides of the same coin gaya ng sabi ni torvicz...

Cheers dudes!

---uhmmm, i think that was me...
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Re: An Analysis

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:32 pm

hmmmnnn... makisali na rin...

i would like to be particular on the word "lufeeeet"
sa akin kasi ang pagsasabi ng lufet is like reading in-between the lines. it camouflaged my happiness seeing my friend improving his skill on which...

maaaring hindi talaga maintindihan ng ibang member din lalo na ung mas marurunong na at very experienced sa CG kasi...

1. hindi naman nila alam ung improvement ng poster kasi hindi nila kilala.
it's not like scratching each others back... it's more than that... sabi nga ng robot there is more than meet the eye lol

2. hindi nila alam kung gaano kasaya ung poster na "at last!!! i have something na i can post and be proud-off dahil this is my first render and i am very happy for what i have achieved (for now)! and i want to share it to the masters and newbies alike... this is for them (CGPmembers)!!!"

3. or dahil sa mas nakakaintindi na e mataas na ung quality na hinahanap and pag hindi umabot sa standard nya ung posted image hindi nya matanggap na merong ibang member ang pumupuri.

i must admit, there are some members here din naman lalo na ung mga bago na kung makapagpost e parang nakakaloko pero very minimal ung mga ganun and ginagawa naman ng mahusay ng admin at mga mods ang duties nila about those cases.

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Re: An Analysis

Post by eyecon01 on Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:33 pm

oooppppsss...

sorry pareng cloud20... ma miss qoute ko po... my bad.

well if the praises are more than the criticism, then we can't blame the newbies. The masters themselves can't be expected to comment on the forums since most likely busy sila sa trabaho... kaya nga master eh... Very Happy

actually sa totoo lng marami talagang newbies na pinoy sa CG dahil hindi pa mature yung industry natin. Most of us are starting pa lng in fact the masters themselves would admit that the bulk of their skill was learned from working at an international firm or sa abroad.
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Re: An Analysis

Post by torvicz on Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:34 am

cloud20 wrote:
eyecon01 wrote:

Guys, just remember nung baguhan pa kayo sa industry na ito. I know at that time ok ang criticism pero isn't a few "well done" and "lufeet pare!" also equally important... and a few years after, looking back you will realize how far you have gone. Then and there you would remember how both criticism and praises have helped you... parang 2 sides of the same coin gaya ng sabi ni torvicz...

Cheers dudes!

---uhmmm, i think that was me...


it's definitely you dude chrome...hehehe name ko kase ung last dun sa post mo e...hehehe
sample lang ako dun dude eyecon!
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Re: An Analysis

Post by silvercrown on Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:35 am

eyecon01 wrote:I'll try to give a good analogy for my point here regarding human nature.

When you train a kid to ride a bike, what do you do? You obviously could not scold him or expect people to come in and pressure the kid to ride the bike correctly right away. The proper way is to praise the boy for every small step and stumble he makes, yet at the same time teaching him the right way to do it.

Artists (newbies in skill) in the forums in general need to be treated that way too. Slowly teach them in their own level. Teach them lightly and not blow them away with terms and criticism that might just push them away. (e.g. We can't expect anybody to learn proper lighting if that person can barely grasp the idea or rendering.)

On that same point some "critics" go way beyond their head, pushing all this information on a newbie. Helpful? maybe. Necessary? Unlikely.

Guys, just remember nung baguhan pa kayo sa industry na ito. I know at that time ok ang criticism pero isn't a few "well done" and "lufeet pare!" also equally important... and a few years after, looking back you will realize how far you have gone. Then and there you would remember how both criticism and praises have helped you... parang 2 sides of the same coin gaya ng sabi ni torvicz...

Cheers dudes!
Very well said...
And i would also agree with this observation:
xboy360 wrote:
Problema lang ata yung balance ng praise/crits dito. O_O
nakikita ko hindi 50/50, more like 25-crits/75-praise eh. So parang nasspoil tayo. Well, siguro nga marami pa kasing newbies dito kaya masmaraming nagppraise then nababalance out yung crits. xD
But from what i've observed in the past few days "comments" vastly improved! We are making improvements na, hopefully it will continue and stay that way... though we still see the usual "lufet" and "post pa" pero meron narin kasamang constructive crits! Smile
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Re: An Analysis

Post by viTAMINs on Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:34 pm

I guess i will have a say on this thread. I am one of the few members of the old 3dpinoy diba pareng Celes?hehehe...Kung sa usapang lasing yan, Elder na ako... I have seen the rise and fall of the forum. I have seen a lot of new members and I have not heard from lots of old members as well. But I wont expect that many of you know me.

I have been hovering over the forum and watching over works of many people. I must agree that i have seen a lot of talents coming out. I have also seen a lot of people here who gave a lot of effort and made great improvements. Sadly, there are also those people who, as Celes(mushroom) mentioned, who practice the "emperor's new clothes" syndrome.

I do apologize for being one of the people who can not always voice out and put in comments. I do not post comments much because, for one, I am very busy. I do not have the luxury of time to post on every thread. I simply pass thru threads and see works done...i then check the previous threads of the person and see the improvements he has made. But when I do say comments, I always make certain I give my own advice and how i would approach the problem. Some members have approached me for more private sessions. I tried my best to provide them with answers they needed. I know those guys know who they are...I really do hope I was able to contribute something.

Here is my advice. When you post a work, It would be great if you add more information about the thread. If its a project you did for Client X, it would be best to share some information as to what the project is all about. Yes your renders or designs look great and yes it may also look terrible, but how on earth can we comment on something we have little info about? It is always nice to have an idea of the project. That way, we can easily point out the interesting subjects and comment accordingly. Here are examples....


Thread 1

"Good day mga sir, here is my post(bedroom). C & C pls.."

- note: you see the render, its average...so with this information, what can u say? most probably nothing.....words like "galing sir" or "good job" are words u would likely think of saying coz in reality, you have no direction as to what needs to be done....its never just about the rendering or how photorealistic the image is.

Thread 2

"good day sir, here is my new post.

Its a bedroom project overlooking the lake. I used Vray 1.5 for the project. Rendering was 8 hours and resolution was 800x600. Used 5 vray sun and standard camera.

the design is not mine. I know my rendering is not perfect, and i would want to ask for your advice over my image. particularly on the part of the carpet that i had difficulty making. I also had problems with splotches. C & C are very welcome."

- as you can see, even with such a short note of the image, the reader already has an idea that its not your design. he also has and idea that your image rendered 8 hours for a resolution that small and that he noted that you had difficulty with the splotches. He also knows now that you used 5 vraysun for the bedroom scene. This opens the room for advices and personal approach. Thus, encourages the reader to participate. Not everyone might reply according to your problems but i am sure there is one guy who is bound to or will have a say and have an advice on how ridiculous the 5 vraysun is and that 1 vraysun with vraycamera would do the job and render the image in 5mins.

For those people new to the industry and are kinda shy or afraid of being criticized, know that the people you label as "veterans" are also people who were once like you. During their time, they had no idea what vray 1.09 is or even scanline and what program is max 6. Let alone have the knowledge how to use it. I had my share of insults and harsh critics by people both better and less qualified. Its the only way you will find out your weakness and improve on it. I know not everyone would agree on what i said, but i just want to say that is my opinion..

Yep, this is one reason why its hard for me to post, its already almost 1am and i need to wake up at 5am to start another day at office... dancing
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Re: An Analysis

Post by eyecon01 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:40 pm

This thread is amazing, I am learning a lot from the discussions here and at the same time I feel educated by the points given! I hope that it continues this way. Looking at the topic with these varied point of views can open new understanding on this discussion.

Kudos to the thread starter and the respondents!
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Re: An Analysis

Post by pakunat on Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:44 pm

wow sir tamins. very well said. I think mga mod lets end this with wat sir tamins have said. i must agree i too is guilty. Lets start a new if we can. lets help others to grow(pero not spoon feeding) and hope they can be masters(as wat they call it) in the future. Have a nice day guys
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Re: An Analysis

Post by tutik on Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:55 pm

i hope i'm not getting off topic to add that similar to what Vtamins mentioned, even moderators don't have the luxury of time as they have jobs and personal lives too. so don't demand too much. instead, let's do our own part coz even in small little ways it will benefit everyone.
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Re: An Analysis

Post by celes on Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:00 pm

paul, glad to see you back! yeah i know how exciting your work life is. ryanc told me once Very Happy

to the rest: i am enjoying how this thread goes, healthy discussions about, it is also amazing to see different points of views.

praises are equally good, criticisms are also good, i think it's the excess of either one that causes problems. in learning there are many approaches. we may not agree on the methods but the objectives are certainly the same.

my view on developing one's skill? it is summarized in this quote:

"the burned hand teaches best. after that advice about fire goes to the heart"
-gandalf talking to pippin
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Re: An Analysis

Post by arkiedmund on Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:02 pm

@viTAMINs:

Veery good points raised there sir. I for one, always put relevant infos on my post most of the time. I was one of those who had the chance of learning from you via a couple of tips seveal years back. And I am grateful and thankful for those times...di pa ko nakakabawi sa yo paul...he he he....

I can't also comment on most post, as I am also busy both at work and at home.

but when do I get the chance, I try to point out things that can be improved.

Kudos indeed to the threadstarter. Hope this be the start of an even better Forum.

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Re: An Analysis

Post by bokkins on Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:27 pm

Tama bro. All excess are bad.


Except for happiness. Crazy_Lion
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Re: An Analysis

Post by celes on Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:58 pm

thumbsup


Last edited by mushroom on Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: An Analysis

Post by glensky on Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:11 pm

hmnnn.... afro
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Re: An Analysis

Post by bokkins on Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:36 pm

bad din un. hahaha!

Pro ung result nun, happiness, kaya hindi bad! hippie
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Re: An Analysis

Post by celes on Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:45 pm

cartman

ot na to boks. sorry.

(ot ulit - wala bang butters na emoticon)
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Re: An Analysis

Post by bokkins on Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:58 pm

(OT: hanap ako bro. haha. butt lang meron. pwet2 )
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Re: An Analysis

Post by Johnybegood on Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:51 pm

gayahin nyo ako, i am very real with my opinions here in cgp, pag napapangitan ako sasabhin ko talagang pangit, it is the responsibility of the poster to weigh the comments and critisicms he or she has recieved, and lets dont take things too seriously bandera


Last edited by Johnybegood on Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: An Analysis

Post by cloud20 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:56 pm

Johnybegood wrote:gayahin nyo ako, i am very real with my opinions here in cgp, pag napapangitan ako sasabhin ko talagang pangit, it is the responsibility of the poster to weigh the comments and critisicms he or she has recieved

sinasabi mo ngang pangit di mo naman ineexplain kung bakit pangit para sa ito edi wala ding kwenta comment mo... eto USUALLY ang comment mo; "pangit po... post pa"... wala na... ano yun? dapat nick mo johnnybeGONE... gayahin mo lelang mo...
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Re: An Analysis

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